Curse

Omniclasm · Aug 03, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder

Well I hope that Nightfall is better than Prophecies. I just finished props, taking a monk thru doing mostly the main missions and quests. I didn't spend any "unnecessary" gold just the basics for skills. Used mostly the same armor till Droknar's Forge where I went to buy max armor. I played very casually (around 2 hours a day at most) and this took me about a month. I merched and ID every item i got (white included) and had 18k. Since I didn't have most of the crafting materials I needed for my armor I had to buy them. Total price for the armor was 16k.

Now I could see how if I just wanted to "get by" like some say that I did accomplish that. BUT how many people want to completely finish the game (I did) and just barely "get by"?

All I can say is that I hope that Nightfall is better. Hopefully since I now have my armor (basic max) paid for and a good skill set obtained that maybe I can get a couple "vanity" items in the 2nd game instead of the 1st.

I don't know if this is attributed to loot scaling or what. All I can say is this is the stingyist game I have ever played.

In Nightfall you get easily 20k+ and a handful of gold items for free by just opening unlocked chests.

Edit: Also look at it this way, now when you go through Nightfall or Factions, ALL of the gold you get is in the positive. You already have your armor, probably have weapons, probably have a decent skill bar if you finished Prophecies. So you are looking at probably 50-60k from doing them two campaigns, maybe more if you sell the end game items.

reddswitch · Aug 03, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

arcanemacabre, I think I recognize your posts. Are you starting new characters every time? Are you running 2 builds or something like Omniclasm is or wants everyone to do? I'm really curious because I think you posted something similar in another thread.

I don't remember ever having it that easy without hitting storage. There was no way I could craft armor without needing materials from storage, with insignias and runes it takes longer. I'll counter argue in advance if you say insignias and runes are optional. Why bother getting max armor if you're not maxing out your potential then? Stick with the free skills. Stick with newbie armor, that way it's all profit from the start. Genius!

Common materials are not part of the excemption list and unless they've started dropping way more frequently I don't remember having enough of any material before reaching mainland. Some armors are cheap to craft some aren't.

Free chest gave you half of your gain, which every other person was describing how they got by if not farming.

arcanemacabre · Aug 03, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddswitch

arcanemacabre, I think I recognize your posts. Are you starting new characters every time? Are you running 2 builds or something like Omniclasm is or wants everyone to do? I'm really curious because I think you posted something similar in another thread.

I did mention the start of my monk in another thread (forget where), and her progression to Kaineng, where I was able to afford max armor. Like I said in that thread, I'm not experimenting with her, per se, I just decided to make a new monk, and never found the need to tap into my storage for anything. Thought it was interesting and it was within the topic, so I posted it.

Since then, I haven't had to buy anything for her except for skills (which are still below 1k for me since I got many using hero skill points) and cap sigs. Because of that, I have watched my storage money actually increase from playing my new monk alone. I am now at least 4k richer than I was when I started her. The only thing I'm currently missing, which I would need to buy when I feel the need, is runes/insignias for my heroes. That will be somewhat pricey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddswitch

I don't remember ever having it that easy without hitting storage. There was no way I could craft armor without needing materials from storage, with insignias and runes it takes longer. I'll counter argue in advance if you say insignias and runes are optional. Why bother getting max armor if you're not maxing out your potential then? Stick with the free skills. Stick with newbie armor, that way it's all profit from the start. Genius!

You won't make money if you spend it all the time. Get what you need when you can afford it. When I bought my armor, I had the runes from my previous armor (which I had bought for my lowbie armor on the starter island). I didn't get the insignias till later, when I could afford them. You need insignias for the same reasons you need max armor and max weapons, as you say, maxing out your potential. But you do not need to have your potential maxxed nonstop. Only max what you can when you can.

The point is you still can. You can get what you need. Easily, even if it takes an extra hour or two of playing missions and quests with your buddies. If you're wondering whether my monk has been effective without Survivor insignias for a couple of quests, well she now has the first tier of the Survivor title, and still ticking!

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddswitch

Common materials are not part of the excemption list and unless they've started dropping way more frequently I don't remember having enough of any material before reaching mainland. Some armors are cheap to craft some aren't.

I always expert salvage highly salvageable items, and I often get common materials in multiples of 30-40. Factions is also notorious for having lots of material drops. Any materials I am missing, which mostly means rare materials, I try to find the outfit that takes the cheapest rare material (like linen or steel), despite what the armor looks like, just so I can stay on top of the game with max armor cheaply. The headpiece was ink and parchment, which are cheap to craft. I had plenty of materials when I reached the mainland, and plenty of extra cash to afford what I didn't have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddswitch

Free chest gave you half of your gain, which every other person was describing how they got by if not farming.

The free chests are awesome and really help out any newbie player or character. They don't favor those who farm and attempt to suck the loot dry, but do favor those who like to explore, and like to find a nice surprise.

cellardweller · Aug 03, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

He said he was getting 1k in 2 hours, and you call bullshit on being 5 minutes off?

If someone like me that has been 55ing since the protective bond days gets 2-3k per hour, I'm ok accepting that someone new to it would get 1/4 that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

If you buy keys, knowing you will lose gold, don't expect to have gold afterwards.

Again, if you'd kindly point me to the npc that sells weapon/offhand upgrades, you'd have a point, until then keys are a necessity of the casual player because the time it takes to trade is more than they have available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Buying a skillset or two is cheap. You can get skills for free from hero trainers, you can get skills for free from quests in Prophecies. 8 skills make a skill bar, you don't "need" 75.

Of course you do! Do you kill the same 8 monsters over and over? Why would you use the same 8 skills over and over? Do you also think golfers should only use a 7 iron, how about gridiron players with only on play in thier book? Guildwars is skills! if you're still using the same 8 skills you've started with, you're not playing GW!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Farming doesn't make you hardcore, but if you want hardcore cash from it, then you have to farm hardcore.

Noone wants hardcore cash, people want to be able to spend 5-10 minutes to support 1 hour of normal gameplay. As it stands now we have to farm for an hour in order to afford to play for an hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

You didn't have to buy the skills, or the lockpick.

If you want to play gw, you have to have skills to play with. If you want to kill things at an appropriate dificulty level, you need to have the appropriate equipment to kill them with. Again, if you'd point me at the npc that gives me free skills to play with or weapon upgrades to kill the bad guys with, you might have a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

People are confusing what they "want" with what they "need". Getting by in the game, max armor, max weapon, a few skillsets, is easily affordable. Playing the game normally gets gold.

My list doesn't contain anything except the basic GW eqipment - skills and collector/crafter weapons. These are needs not wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

If you "want" 15k armor, but you insist on buying keys every time you leave town, you must not want that 15k armor too bad. It is easy to save up gold, but if you insist on spending it, then that is your fault.

15k is a want. Basic equipment and skills are needs.

pork soldier · Aug 03, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Lootscaling isn't for casual players, whatever they tell you it's bogus.

Loot scaling is intended to rate limit the acquisition of gold by farmers, both professional and amateur. In other words, loot scaling is a way to curb the flow of gold into the economy while still allowing MMO addicted solo farmers to spend all day grinding (the more time you spend playing GW the more time + emotional investment you have in the game, and the less likely you are to quit - this is the MMO secret sauce, and gw now has it). As long as you continue to play you're likely to buy whatever addons ANet produces, this is why you can solo farm with a rate limit, grind for vanq, grind for cartographer, grind for ... etc. They keep you playing, and playing keeps you buying. It's a good business plan, but not so much fun for players.

What loot scale really did was raise the value of gold relative to items, not make things magically cheap. The funny thing is that this actually encourages people to buy gold, lol.

reetkever · Aug 03, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

In Nightfall you get easily 20k+ and a handful of gold items for free by just opening unlocked chests.

Edit: Also look at it this way, now when you go through Nightfall or Factions, ALL of the gold you get is in the positive. You already have your armor, probably have weapons, probably have a decent skill bar if you finished Prophecies. So you are looking at probably 50-60k from doing them two campaigns, maybe more if you sell the end game items.

You missed out one thing: Nightfall COSTS way more, because of all the heroes you need to equip.

My Warrior now has 15 heroes. To equip them with good max damage weapons costs ALOT of cash, or you have to be willing to spend thousands of hours farming for the collectible items the collectors want.

It's a good think I bought the special GW:EN bonus thingy, so on 1 account, all caster heroes are now done.

Then there are 20 heroes who are not caster or ranger, and most of them need 2 weapons (Axe and Shield).

On my other account, I still have 60 heroes to work with, too. The amount of collectible drops you need for that is beyond imagination. Drops from the hidden chests are usually Offhands, which usually suck, and besides - my treasures have run dry a long time ago. They don't seem to reset after 3 times. And after 2 times, they only drop purple + 400 gold most of the time.

If you go to the weapon crafter, you find out that every weapon costs 1K + Materials. This is the cheapest max dmg weapon you'll find in Elona, since all drops aren't max dmg - even in hard mode. Of the 60 heroes, some need 2 weapons, a primairy weapon and a shield, so that adds up, too. Ohh, and since most accounts have 8 characters instead of 4, they have 120 heroes to equip.

Even when max dmg weapons are 500 gold, and you only buy 1 weapon per hero, you'll end up losing 60K.

Oh and on a side note: The skillbar you had in Prophecies is most likely useless in the Realm of Torment.

pork soldier · Aug 03, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Reet, if you're trying to kit heroes out on every single character on two accounts then you deserve to spend huge gobs of cash. No one in their right mind is going to expect to have everything on every hero on 16 characters, that's utterly pointless.

Let me remind you that you can a: put crap in storage to move between characters and b: successfully salvage runes off of hero armor 100% of the time.

That should help with your self-inflicted problem :P

reetkever · Aug 03, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Reet, if you're trying to kit heroes out on every single character on two accounts then you deserve to spend huge gobs of cash. No one in their right mind is going to expect to have everything on every hero on 16 characters, that's utterly pointless.

Let me remind you that you can a: put crap in storage to move between characters and b: successfully salvage runes off of hero armor 100% of the time.

That should help with your self-inflicted problem :P

Ehm, not really, cause my storage is empty :P

And I don't even use runes on heroes, cause my own characters aren't even fully equipped with runes. Well, I'm taking it easy with heroes atm, but they do have to be equipped with max dmg stuff, and the monks DO need extra energy, cause in high-end area's, they're really burning through their current energy supply.

And my 2 accounts are only halve, since I share both of them with my brother, so I don't have to equip all 240 heroes.

jhu · Aug 03, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

sounds like you would have had trouble with money anyways evern without the loot nerfing.

i generally don't have much issues with money since nightfall came out. additionally, since i have prophecies, i like to use max collector armor until i need something better (which is almost generally never). although i find it stupid that they don't make the max collector armor inscribable whereas non-max collector armor is inscribable.

Snow Bunny · Aug 03, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

ho hum...does it really take that much to outfit heroes? Can it be storage draining? I honestly just equip my heroes with the best loot/greens I get.
My koss is using a kanaxai's axe and an exalted aegis, both ridiculously cheap.
My sousuke uses a rago's staff, relatively cheap staff.
Olias uses a ghials, very very cheap.
and MoW uses stonereaper, cheapest of them all.
And if Tahl needs a weapon, she can have a Kephket's Refuge.

And if you can't afford to equip them with greens...white weapons suffice too. that q10 white 6-28 axe fits the bill.

And drops from the collector chests are pretty nice. I got an Azure recurve bow and an adamantine falchion yesterday, both q9. The free plat didn't hurt my spirits either.

Omniclasm · Aug 03, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

You missed out one thing: Nightfall COSTS way more, because of all the heroes you need to equip.

My Warrior now has 15 heroes. To equip them with good max damage weapons costs ALOT of cash, or you have to be willing to spend thousands of hours farming for the collectible items the collectors want.

It's a good think I bought the special GW:EN bonus thingy, so on 1 account, all caster heroes are now done.

Then there are 20 heroes who are not caster or ranger, and most of them need 2 weapons (Axe and Shield).

On my other account, I still have 60 heroes to work with, too. The amount of collectible drops you need for that is beyond imagination. Drops from the hidden chests are usually Offhands, which usually suck, and besides - my treasures have run dry a long time ago. They don't seem to reset after 3 times. And after 2 times, they only drop purple + 400 gold most of the time.

If you go to the weapon crafter, you find out that every weapon costs 1K + Materials. This is the cheapest max dmg weapon you'll find in Elona, since all drops aren't max dmg - even in hard mode. Of the 60 heroes, some need 2 weapons, a primairy weapon and a shield, so that adds up, too. Ohh, and since most accounts have 8 characters instead of 4, they have 120 heroes to equip.

Even when max dmg weapons are 500 gold, and you only buy 1 weapon per hero, you'll end up losing 60K.

Oh and on a side note: The skillbar you had in Prophecies is most likely useless in the Realm of Torment.

Heroes are perfectly happy using the first max damage weapon you find, white, blue, gold, purple, or green. They don't need many insignias. One minor/major rune whichever is cheaper. Yes, you can finish Nightfall like that, I did back when I had no gold. Half my heroes still have non-max weapons. Half my characters still don't even have all the heroes.

-3 max damage whites -> Free
-3 minor/major runes for 100 -> 300
-3 white offhands/shields -> Free

As for the build you run in Prophecies not working, that is false. My monk runs a build with all prophecies skills, except Dismiss Condition. My friends monk also runs a build with all Prophecies skills except Resurrection Chant. My Necromancer runs a build with all Prophecies skills. So saying that it won't work in Realm of Torment is false.

Loviatar · Aug 05, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhu

That's only true the first time you open those chests with a character. With subsequent openings, the drops get worse and worse. The first time I opened all the treasure I got all gold items. One month later with the same character, the drops are now all purple. And the amount of money given was less. So treasure chests are not all that viable unless you continually make and destroy new characters.

that is no true at all.

i have opened them several times and never gotten anything but a gold item each time

not a single purple in the lot

kradens · Aug 05, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

has anyone got the same problem with me in NM underworld.

me and a friend cleared all the aatxe's and smites out, and i only mananged to complete 3 rows of my item bags, most of them were non-max blues and whites.

on a side not. i did get a scroll to UW. but that hardly makes up for what seems to by a uber nerfed underworld. whats the point vying for this place if all you get is loot that amounts to a gates-of-kryta run, heck, i've attained more purples from there with an odd gold.

if UW is so easy and anet just have to nerf the drops so that everyone doest get rich, then why not just make it harder instead of making the play experiance so unrewarding.

Omniclasm · Aug 05, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by kradens

has anyone got the same problem with me in NM underworld.

me and a friend cleared all the aatxe's and smites out, and i only mananged to complete 3 rows of my item bags, most of them were non-max blues and whites.

on a side not. i did get a scroll to UW. but that hardly makes up for what seems to by a uber nerfed underworld. whats the point vying for this place if all you get is loot that amounts to a gates-of-kryta run, heck, i've attained more purples from there with an odd gold.

if UW is so easy and anet just have to nerf the drops so that everyone doest get rich, then why not just make it harder instead of making the play experiance so unrewarding.

That is just a flawed game design. Items in the end game area sell for just as much as in mid game area. This is because weapons have a max, the weapons you find in Vabbi are just as strong as the weapons you find in Realm of Torment, or UW, and sell for just as much. They could double the drop rate in these places, but that would just fill your inventory very fast. 6 rows of slots filled isn't bad. What is that? 30-40 items from 50 monsters?

kradens · Aug 06, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

nop, i didnt manage to fill 6 rows.

what i managed was 3 rows.

3 rows!!!!!!

kradens · Aug 06, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

oh yeh. its a lot more than 50 i killed btw trust me. i'll count them up next time, but the amount of aatxe's, grasps, smites and colfires we killed, it doesnt feel like enough loot 3 rows.

TabascoSauce · Aug 06, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I am quoting Omniclasm, not because of the validity of his posts, but to point out his flaws. This is not personal, and it really is aimed at the whole lot of the people who are unabashedly pro-lootscaling. They are cherry-picking their arguments, and trying to beat reetkever into submission through verbal bludeoning. But to his credit, he will not give up.

I'll cherry-pick your cherry-picking, and show it all to be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

People have less gold, therefore sellers have to sell for less gold or they won't sell it. If you go into a city where everyone has 50 million dollars, will selling a car for 500k be that difficult? Probably not. If you take that car to a place where people have about 250k, will you sell that car? Hell no.

Note how he is showing that the prices of player-sold goods are expected to be elastic - that as money supply goes up and down, then the prices follow suit. He's good so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Increasing the value of gold lowers the cost of items in gold. Just like the examples I gave you with ectos earlier.
Ectos worth 5k -> Item Worth 100k+20e
Ectos worth 10k -> Item Worth 100k+10e
It works the same with gold. If gold is worth more, the prices will be lower.

And this is where he jumps off the cliff.

Ectos worth 5k -> Item Worth 100k+20e, 1 skill = 1 plat, 1 rune = 500g
Ectos worth 10k -> Item Worth 100k+10e, 1 skill = 1 plat, 1 rune = 500g

Fixed cost items are not elastic. As general cash decreases, the ability of casual players to buy fixed cost items goes down.

If he wants to stay with the high-rollers and trade his ectos for irridescents, then good for him.

All they are doing is demonstrating that they have lost touch with reality - the percentage of people who buy irridescent anythings is miniscule. Well, miniscule and vocal beyond their numbers.

Stop trying to perpetuate the false belief that everyone is a day-trader in the "player-selling the super-item" high-roller economy.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Wispir · Aug 06, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

If you are only getting about 600 gold per HM clear, and only about 1 gold a week then you are playing less than 2 hours a day, or most of that time is spent chatting or PvPing. The loot scaling helps players who are, as was previously stated, doing missions, bonuses, and working on HM titles. This means if you go out solo farming for hours yes you will be disappointed. But if you are used to just playing the game, you will find more being dropped.

Now I am just getting back into the game, I only went through the 3 campaigns on normal mode so far, and just in that week it took to go through Proph, Factions, and NF I have gotten 1.5k armor, and ancient armor, and many skills for PvP.

I am also a firm believer that no casual player should have the elite items. Many will complain, but in every game there needs to be items that are available only to the hardcore that work for it (in Guild Wars this is obsidian armor, and those rare skin weapons). I would be unhappy if suddenly casual playing could bring about FoW armor and that status weapon.

What they have done is made the mods more frequent. So your 15^50 +30 HP 20/20 sundering Longsword is exactly as usable as Mr Uber's 15^50 +30 HP 20/20 sundering Crystalline, but he has played longer to earn that rare skin. Now if you are all for rewards for everyone, and think that he who plays 7 hours a day should have the same things as he who plays 2 hours a day, go play Runescape.

kradens · Aug 06, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

saw a guy who showed me a whole trade bar full of 250 ecto stacks.

made me cry.

Loviatar · Aug 06, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

And this is where he jumps off the cliff.

Ectos worth 5k -> Item Worth 100k+20e, 1 skill = 1 plat, 1 rune = 500g
Ectos worth 10k -> Item Worth 100k+10e, 1 skill = 1 plat, 1 rune = 500g

minor runes a long time ago started at 2.5K for the worst and were 5K to 10 K for popular ones..........people could still afford full group drops and get skills..........it just was not insta right now gratification

superior runes started at 20+ K and most were at least 40 K with the popular ones like fire/favor/marksmanship/etc 60 K to 75 K vigor and 100 K sup absorb.......PEOPLE STILL BOUGHT SKILLS JUST NOT A FEW BARS AT A TIME TO TRY OUT

Quote:

Fixed cost items are not elastic. As general cash decreases, the ability of casual players to buy fixed cost items goes down.

the casual player going through the game their first time is not dreaming of ideal skill bars/ keys for chest runs/ 15k/ FOW/ festival tickets he is going from mission to mission getting a few skill points and getting a few new skills from the newest skill trainer with a few new skills he does not have yet